Journey to Sustainable Space Transcript

The Journey to Sustainable Space

The Think podcast: Episode 4


In our fourth episode, Ruth Andrew from our marketing and corporate affairs team chats with Daniel Smith of AstroAgency and Kristina Tamane of the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute and Scottish Space Leadership Council. In the episode, they discuss the journey to a more sustainable space sector and they share their hopes for COP26 in Glasgow this November.

00:00:01 Narrator

Hello and welcome back to the Think podcast. Brought to you by Scottish Enterprise ahead of the UN Climate Change Summit, COP26 in Glasgow this November.

We're sharing conversations with inspirational people on the topic of climate and the impact it's having here and across the globe.

We're reaching for the stars in this episode where Ruth Andrew, from our marketing and corporate affairs team, chats with Daniel Smith of AstroAgency and Kristina Tamane of the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute on all things space and clean.

00:00:35 Ruth Andrew (RA)

Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Think Climate Podcast. My name is Ruth Andrew, and I'm part of the Scottish Enterprise corporate affairs team. And today we'll be talking about the journey to sustainable space.

And I'm delighted to welcome a couple of guests that are with me today. Daniel Smith and Kristina Tamane.

Daniel is the founder of AstroAgency and Co-Chair of the Scottish Space Leadership Council - and a GlobalScot.

And Kristina is a business development executive with the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute and also Co-Chair of the Scottish Space Leadership Council. Welcome to Kristina and Daniel.

00:01:12 Kristina Tamane (KT)

Thank you, Ruth.

00:01:12 RA

What I thought we could kick off with is just a little bit of background for the guys that are not maybe not so familiar with you both and maybe are not in the space realms.

Tell us a little bit about what your day job entails and what you get up to because I know you're both very passionate about what you do.

00:01:31 Daniel Smith (DS)

Sure, so from a from a sort of day job rather than an SSLC perspective, or maybe a bit of both.

So in terms of what I do at AstroAgency, it's a it's a firm that has been set up to promote and give a voice to the space sector. It's all about new space. You know it's called new space, this idea of private and commercial space and being opened up to people other than just NASA and Nissan and government agencies, and really, the agency was set up to try and promote the sector globally

It's a marketing company essentially, but we do things like taglines, logos, website for space companies.

But we also help on a lot of strategy because the team most of the team have been part of the space sector for a number of years.

So we know the opportunities we know the challenges in this sector and we were able to bring people together that way and really work on strategies to help companies that maybe could be using or get involved in the space sector as a new revenue stream for their business, or are already part of the space sector and they're just looking to amplify what they're currently doing.

And so that's us. We're 20 people headquartered in Edinburgh, but global and working with around 23 or 24 global space companies.

00:02:47 RA

Cool, so Kristina, tell us about what you get up to.

00:02:50 KT

So my role as you said, Ruth is the space business development executive at the University of Edinburgh.

So my responsibility at the university is to create collaborative projects between the university and our industrial partners all around space and satellites, and that's everything from downstream, upstream, in orbit, and anything else surrounding space.

Which is great.

I'm also the innovation advisor for the Sprint programme, which is a UK wide network of universities who work with small medium enterprises to hopefully pivot the space sector forwards.

I'm also the in Copernicus relay, which is all around trying to use get people to use space data for their businesses and university research.

And same as Daniel, I am the Co-chair of the SCORE Space, Leaderships Environmental Task Force and but we'll definitely talk about that later on down the line.

00:03:42 RA

Great stuff, well, thank you for that bit of background. Wow, you both get up to a lot and wear a lot of different hats, which is probably great to talk about. You know that we're here to talk about the journey to sustainable space.

And it's in the media, you know, space is always a sexy end of a business and most people have a view on it.

What does it mean? Sustainable space? You know, what is that journey we're on, and why would people care about that?

00:04:09 DS

From my point of view, I think it's you know we've got this amazing opportunity in Scotland and in the UK with what is a very new a new sector, a burgeoning sector. That's a word that Kristina likes to use a lot about the sector and but we're all in the kind of ground floor and shaping this industry, which is quite rare. When you think of all the different industries, to be part of something so early on, really, it’s an incredible opportunity that we've got.

So for me, it's about trying to make sure that the industry develops in that particular way and when it comes to sustainability, I guess what we're talking about is in a way that thinks about its impact on the environment and, you know, Kristina mentioned there upstream and downstream and also in orbit, and those are different kind of areas of space and they all have different impacts on different environments.

Whether it be the on earth environment, or it could actually be the in space environment where there's a number of satellites in low Earth orbit that are used for Earth observation and other purposes, but there's a lot of debris up there too, for example. So it's trying to think about space as an environment and sustainability in a way that encompasses more than just, you know, the Earth’s environment. And just trying to progress and do things the right way as we move forward.

00:05:20 KT

And it's good that we have the kind of coalition between industrial partners, but also universities, and we have governmental support.

And as we'll talk about slightly later, we've worked with charities and 3rd sector organisations and people like Friends of the Earth for example, who supported us in in this journey. Because one of the things I think is very interesting about the sector is that folks are not afraid to say, yeah, we do want to do this right, but how do we do that? And to ask for support and help so that we can all grow together.

If, like Daniel said, we're all still a fairly new sector still developing. So every day is a learning day.

And for the record, the word burgeoning is definitely Daniel’s word. It's not mine.

00:06:03 RA

Well, burgeoning or not, it's a good word, one way or the other.

So if we're on a journey and I'm looking at sustainability and there's lots of opportunity for the sector, what does that sector look like in Scotland at the moment?

I mean, I know there's been some discussion around things like a spaceport in in the very north of Scotland. And I know we make satellites in Scotland. What would surprise people? What kind of things do you come across that actually make people sit up and take notice of Scotland as a space sector player?

00:06:36 KT

Well, I think one of the things that's particularly interesting about Scotland is that we have the end-to-end capability here in the country, so almost like a living lab as a country themselves.

So we have everything from people who are having concepts about what the satellites should look like, and think about instrumentation and the science that's needed within.

Like you said, we have people who actually can build those satellites, people like AAC Clyde Space prospects, Spire who are just based in Scotland.

And we're developing 5 currently, spaceports so Scotland has got more to then launch the satellites that are being built here using potentially Scottish rocket launchers like Skyrora or Orbex.

And I think that's one of the things that Ivan McKee frequently talks about when he's talking on the global stage. And as far as we know – and Daniel, correct me if I'm wrong here – there isn't another country that has that kind of capability all in one place. Is there?

00:07:29 DS

Well, it's great. It's definitely unusual, particularly in Europe, that once you add launch on, which is really the missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle for Scotland and the UK.

And so yeah, I think once you have all that together, if we can get launch right, and you know, we've all mentioned spaceport and we’ve got 5 developing spaceports in Scotland. And if we get to the point where we can start launching orbitally, then that really will be the full the full value chain covered and that will be unique in Europe.

But it's not just about launch, you know. Launch is a great thing, and if we can make it happen and then it would be incredible.

But we already have such exciting areas. You know, space and great things that are going on. Kristina mentioned some of them there.

It's well said, and I'm sure your listeners will have heard, that there's more satellites built in Glasgow than anywhere else in the world outside of California. Even heard a taxi driver mention it to me recently, which I thought was quite good, it means we're getting messaging out.

But it's absolutely true, and companies like Spire have built 100 satellites in Glasgow which is really exciting, and other ones that that Kristina mentioned as well. And then there's the data side that Kristina is very much involved in, Edinburgh positioning itself as the space data capital of Europe.

And some incredible downstreams of companies that are using Earth observation data from satellites to do really inspiring things on Earth.

That’s a real forte for Scotland as well. We've got lots of companies that are doing great things from, you know, monitoring climate change and measuring forests and carbon capture, and you know identifying illegal fishing and illegal mining activities from satellites.

Even companies like ASTROSAT in Edinburgh who are using space data to help with mental health issues during the COVID pandemic. You know to think that space can be paired with mental health is really inspiring for me.

So it really is. It goes far beyond the exciting launch stuff, but the fact we've got all of that happening here and the supply chains that that all opens out, it’s a really exciting time for Scotland.

00:09:19 RA

So we're obviously learning more and more every day about what happens in our environment, universities want to understand what that actually means?

How do we then take that and make something useful out of it? Is that something that space industry is interested in collaborating with, or is it something that they can kind of pass on or?

How does that work?

00:09:37 DS

I think you know being such a new industry, I don’t want to use that word again but, being such a new a new sector we need to collaborate first of all.

And that's the great thing about the space industry is we're very small and we do realise that we need companies that aren't currently involved in the industry to get involved.

We need also to let people know of the opportunities to use space data. You know for businesses, whether it's transport, logistics, or really anything else. There’s some incredible ways that companies could be using insight from space data to, you know, improve the services and products they have.

And so yeah, on the whole sustainability side. We know that that that data helps the environment and a number of environmental groups when we engaged with them early on in this initiative, they said we use space data for our work to help the environment. We need it to see what's going on with climate change and other things.

But what we wanted to do as a sector and from the Scottish space leadership point of view, let's say, OK, well, we know that's all good. But how can we also do things in a more environmentally friendly way? In terms of getting these satellites into orbit and understanding the true environmental impact of the sector.

When you look at crunching the data, when you look at people going to visit launches, generally space isn't seen as a sector that's very good for the environment.

If we think of space, it kind of conjures up images of massive rockets and smoke. It's generally not what's going to be happening in Scotland.

We won't be launching humans, that's very unlikely, it will mostly be small satellites just because of the orbits that we can reach from Scotland. So we're doing small launch of small satellites, it is a different yeah, different thing.

But there's also opportunities for companies that are doing that kind of activity to be thinking more about, how can we do things that have less of a negative impact on the environment, and that's what this initiative was about.

00:11:24 KT

And one of the things particularly that's useful in terms of the space data perspective, is that the kind of collaboration that Daniel mentioned here as well, is that the space data is one of the puzzle pieces if you think about it, but it's also one of the values. So one of the ways that the space sector can help, especially with climate change and sustainability, is by merging data sets.

And that's one of the things that, as Daniel mentioned earlier, the University of Edinburgh and our data driven navigation programme is planning to become the space data capital of Europe.

Because we're doing that already. So we're merging, for example, Earth observation data with health data to see what's happening, to see if there's emissions impact inside buildings, and that having a knock on effect on people’s health, that’s something the University of Edinburgh has done before.

There's lots of different initiatives and different companies contributing their own data towards these projects as well, because everyone collects something slightly different. There's a really lovely company called R3 IoT which have been in the news today who use IoT data and combine it with space data to derive interesting products, for example.

So one of the things that the space sector can do and does do is collaborate with other kind of cross-cutting sectors to try to come up with something useful.

And it's very much from my perspective an enabling sector because I think on our own we've – I mean, apart from launch, which is very Spacey – we do things together as a result. So it's like even sensors that are developed for satellites are then used on the ground or things that actually go into space are frequently used by people right here on Earth.

So it's a really collaborative sector and, with COP26 on the horizon, it's a sector that can really showcase what we can do when we come together and what existing data sets can really deliver and show us about what we're doing and how we should do things better.

But also, as Daniel was saying, how do we plan sustainably in the long run to make sure that we don't completely pollute our low Earth orbit but carry on delivering the great science and world leading research and kind of, hate this word, but thought leadership.

That does sound cheesy, but that's the right thing I guess, is that we're, as a country, as Scotland, we're doing that. We're doing that kind of forward thinking that no one else is quite taking charge of yet.

00:13:48 RA

I'm with you on thought leadership, but I also love the fact that you use "spacey”, I'm going to start using it. It's very Spacey.

I know we've talked a little bit about, it's a new sector, it's burgeoning, and there's lots of exciting things going on that maybe have never been brought together in the first, you know, in this way before.

I presume it means as well that there's new ideas and new ways to solve some challenges, and I know that through your Space Leadership Council event recently, the space summit that you had, you had a few challenges running and you're looking for kind of new ideas and people to come forward. Maybe just to think about things a different way.

How did that go? Was that interesting, exciting? What sort of stuff is coming out of that that might be useful to some of the guys listening.

00:14:34 DS

Well, yeah, I'll give a little bit of background, then let Kristina talk about some of the things that come out of the work and next steps.

Basically, we realised again it comes back to what we were saying earlier: that there's an opportunity here to make sure that the sector is thinking about the environment as it develops. And it's critical that it does that, of course, with all the aims to reach net zero and other such things.

Another point here is you know space isn’t seen as a particular environmentally friendly sector. But we know that in Scotland there are a number of really good initiatives and a lot of technology that's being developed here that would really make people surprised.

For example, the launch vehicles that the rocket companies, the two main ones in in Scotland are Skyrora and also Orbex - they both have sustainable fuels that they're developing and you know, the satellite companies are looking at different materials they can use and how they can de-orbit and they leave low earth orbit essentially, and not create more debris.

So, you know, there's a lot of things going on.

Spaceports too, and there’s a couple of spaceports in Scotland, and they're already talking about positioning themselves as the greenest spaceport, and they're saying that they're really keen to be viewed in that way.

It was about finding a way to engage with environmental groups first of all, because it's key that we hear the views of environmental groups. And we've engaged with them early on, we didn't want to be a sector that just moves forward and thinks about that stuff later.

It's critical that we engage with them early, and I don't think anyone was too keen to make the step with the reputation that space has, to speak to the group.

So Kristina and I were kind of left to do that, but we had some rather interesting, difficult conversations early on. But, I think it comes back to the space data side and the benefits that are widely accepted and for the environment you know, before long we were given the chance to speak.

It was actually a gentleman, Richard Dickson, director of Friends of the Earth who we spoke with. And he immediately could see - he understands and gets the benefit of the downstream side that come from space, access to space, but he was very interested to hear more about first of all the fact that there are five development spaceports in Scotland which he wasn't aware of which made him concerned of course, and want to find out more about how this is going to play out.

But he was also interested to hear of some of the initiatives that are mentioned there around more sustainable fuels and other and other things.

So for us it is about engaging, being listened to and making sure we could point out some of the crisis basically talks to itself a lot and it was about trying to let people know what is going on in the space sector and that we are genuinely trying to move forward in the in the right way, I guess you would call it. But at the same time being held to account as well and understanding that we don't necessarily know what we need to do, and we need to be thinking more about this and could the environmental groups help steer us and be part of the journey.

So that was the idea. And as part of that we had a call for challenges. So we asked for people to submit challenges that could be solved by space and challenges for space to be thinking about.

And we had something new with 30, 40 different challenges submitted to us.

And Kristina and I put together, in a crazy 24 hour period, a really good judging panel of 6 individuals.

And we knew that we couldn't really judge it ourselves, so it'd be better to be as independent as possible. So we've gotten people like Moriba Jah at the University of Texas, Austin.

And then Linda Hanna, the CEO of Scottish Enterprise. Richard Nixon who we have mentioned, from Friends of the Earth, and someone who's been a judge on Robot Wars TV series and someone from the European Space Agency who deals with sustainability, and climate. So we have this really impressive group. Also NatureScot as well were involved.

So they selected three challenges from all of the ones that have been submitted for the space sector to then go off and come up with solutions for. Which is quite a tall ask in a fairly short time, only a month or two that we had.

But we then organised workshops with the space sector leads. So companies from across the space and the members of the leadership council led workshops. We had around 60 companies across all the different work streams.

We had different sectors participate which we mentioned just now, and I think that it's a theme definitely for space is this collaboration, this need to collaborate and because space you know touching so many other sectors anyway, it's great to encourage that.

So it was great to see other sectors get involved and then the environmental groups being part of those discussions as well, those work streams.

And they took place on webinars and online webinars. This was at the start of the year, so we weren't able to meet up. And each challenge had two or three meetings where we discussed, and explored solutions to the challenges. And then we had a summit, we had an online summit where we kind of fed back and showcased the result really. And but I’ll let Kristina say a little bit more about that and what the challenges were.

00:19:36 KT

Yeah, yeah, happily. So yeah. So as Daniel said, we did have a lot of submissions and me and Daniel specifically didn't read them all because we knew would be biased.

So we asked our wonderful judging panel to make a decision for us. I still haven't actually read all of them, I think I will, I can probably read them now legally without feeling bad about it, yeah?

00:19:53 DS

Yeah, I think so.

00:19:55 KT

So the three kind of challenges, overarching channels that got selected were one of them. So challenge number one was all about a low Earth orbit, and looking at space debris and kind of that health around our planet. The second one was assessing the actual effect of the space sector on the environment. And looking at how we could become net zero in the longer run.

But it's specifically looking at what is the current knock on effect of the space sector and the supply chains. And then the final one was all about open science and citizen science and the idea of creating and using the datasets that are around to enable wider collaboration.

So again, coming back to what Daniel said, lots of ideas about engaging the wider public and different sectors around there. So we had really productive conversations.

And at the summit, the idea was that we presented back what the challengers actually did. So what the folks talked about in their workshops.

I presented back what the next follow-on steps were going to be, and actually the whole of the summit, in case anyone is interested, is on the Scottish Space Council’s website and the sustainability charter so you can have a look at the full 2 1/2 hours of fun hosted by Dallas and Susie. It was a really good event.

Actually we were lucky enough to have Nicola Sturgeon open the event and then we had the ESA Director general speak at the event as well. So clearly this was an area of interest across very high levels, which is exactly what we were hoping it would be.

And the summit itself. We had like 500 people sign up for the event, which was brilliant. And we're hoping that this is going to be one of many.

So we always said we're going to start here, but it's never - it's a journey. It's not the end. And so since the event which will happened a month ago, 23rd of June, I believe, was the date, we've been having ongoing conversations with Richard Dixon, for example, and loads of other people who've contributed and more have come through since the event to say we want to play along as well.

And we're just currently deciding what would be the best, most proactive ways forward. And we'll carry on working with our colleagues across the whole sector and in government and academia and industry, and our friends in environmental sector, about what should be the best next steps.

Because we want to make sure that we kind of articulate the vision, If you like, going forward and make sure that we actually lead the world by example from Scotland, which is exactly what we said we would do from the beginning.

00:22:21 RA

Amazing, so much going on and to have that kind of response to those challenges as well, fantastic.

So obviously the future is very bright. There's lots of great ideas, and for this new sector there is lots of activity going on and things can be taken forward.

What do you think the next big steps for Scotland and the space sector will be over the next, you know, five years, 10 years? Where would you like Scotland to be in the kind of world space sector?

00:22:56 KT

Well, maybe I can start off and Daniel can contribute.

I'm hoping that, through some of the activities of the Scottish Space Leadership Council, we can become known as the most sustainable sector in Europe at the very least, hopefully the world, and the first space sector to create a strategy where we actually talk about how we're going to become sustainable, and show others how we can be done. And as a result attract wealthy people to come and launch here in Scotland as, like we said in the beginning, end to end capability. Why wouldn't you come?

But I'm also hoping that because of the kind of breakthrough research and science that we have across the whole of Scotland, both in our companies and in universities, I'm hoping we can lead the way in terms of fixing those big global problems.

So things around climate change, things around poverty. Using the datasets that we're creating here in Scotland and using our expertise to actually come up with solutions that work on a global scale.

And I think we have. We are well positioned to do that because we have lots of folks who are experts in artificial intelligence, machine learning. But then also matter subject experts around humanitarian issues and things around law and things around finance. And they can – again, enabling sector - to contribute together and kind of really lead the way and be the stage to look to.

I think COP26 will maybe kick that off. I'm hoping that the space sector can really demonstrate its value during COP26, but I think that's kind of a nice, open door to carry on those conversations and hopefully become known lessasf a polluter and more of an enabler in the longer run. That will be my thinking.


00:24:40 DS

Yeah, I think everything you've said there I totally agree with, and that enabling aspect is really important. And I think for launch to start to be seen as an enabler rather than, you know, a polluter is really important because ultimately without launch we can't get the benefits that we do already get from satellite later and then in the next five years.

It's going to be a really critical time for the UK, but as well for Europe. Because you know that there is no European orbital launch spaceport at the moment. There's a number developing across Europe, and it's a key time for Scotland and for the wider UK to make sure that the UK can be, can host Europe's, you know, orbital spaceports.

So that's a huge opportunity for us, and one that we need to do in the right way, but one that we need to move forward at pace. It’s a bit like we're going to have a new space race. So we need to make sure that we're at the front of that race.

And I think in that time period, or hopefully a lot shorter, we can continue to really kind of solidify this reputation in Scotland around Earth observation data.

I think the incredible things that are going on in Scotland in this field, it's just really what inspires me.

You know I have a background. It's more on the launch side and since starting AstroAgency and working with responsive access and doing a lot more on the satellite side and working out all the downstream data side has really been a learning curve for me. And that's what inspires me far more than a rocket taking off, is some of the incredible things we can do with space data.

Yeah, I think the more that that Scotland and the wider UK can become specialists in this area in a place where any country from anywhere in the world, if they have an issue that can be solved with this and they can come to the expertise we've got here, then that that's ideal.

And some companies, companies in Scotland from GSI and Manners and companies like that, are doing incredible things around the world using space data.

And then again, I guess as a marketing person, I should really say, awareness in this sector. So I'm sure you'll have listeners, and maybe you're surprised by some of the things we've said today. We've honestly not made it all up to keep it entertaining, but I think we can find a way to make sure that the general public and not just ,you know, the taxi driver told me so gladly about Scotland, but everybody knows that space is very much a serious opportunity for Scotland, and we're actually already very good at various parts of it.

And also other sectors to understand the opportunities to be part of the space sector. You know we often say in the industry that every company is a space company because any company can be part of the space value chain and supply chain.

And they can find opportunities to sell into that supply chain. And it doesn't matter if you're technical or not. You know I don't have a technical background for example so and I think that's something we'd like to make people aware of.

But also, the downstream opportunities, as we've mentioned already, and highlighted the opportunities from using space data to enhance businesses. So that would be a great thing to aim for instead of space just being thought of as the realm of NASA or SpaceX etc, to realise actually it's happening here, and pretty soon it's not just going to be burgeoning, it's going to be very real.

00:27:45 RA

Huge ambitions, and genuinely life changing ambitions, actually, from what you were saying around what could happen next, which is super exciting for Scotland, but also for the world.

Where does that go next? And, just pick up your point, Daniel, on the general awareness, we've obviously had in the media quite recently. You know, the Branson/Bezos space race head-to-head. So my question there would be, does that help awareness?

And secondly, would you buy a ticket?

00:28:18 DS

I think Kristina and I are going to have different answers on that second part I would imagine.

I think anything about space definitely does help, but as I mentioned earlier, it's very unlikely we'll see people launching from the UK, our forte is going to be around small satellite launches.

But it I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's good that it gets people talking about space and in in those conversations we can bring up more about what's going on in terms of access to low Earth orbit and launch some satellites that we do so well.

Well, the satellites are being built here, but we have an opportunity to do very well from Scotland.

So yeah, I think it's not a bad a bad thing necessarily, but I think there's a lot of other stories that for me, are far more exciting, that should be noticed more. And it's, you know, our role as a sector, and to make sure that we get those stories out.

In terms of would I buy a ticket: no, absolutely not. I'm quite fine where I am.

Actually, I'll be happy to write about all the stories so that if Kristina buys a ticket I'm happy to be her marketing agency and tell the story of it at all.

00:29:32 KT

I mean if I ever need a marketing agency, you know you're the one for me, but I am not going up into space.

I'm way too afraid of heights and it's not happening. Yeah, so we we're both staying on Earth, we’ll send someone else don't worry.

00:29:36 DS

We should have just said that we were totally ready to launch tomorrow, people are going to be so disappointed.


00:29:43 KT

I'll give Richard a call and see if we can sort this out. But no, I mean it's definitely I think the stuff that the Bezos and Branson and Musk eventually are doing is good to highlight that there is a lot of space ambition in the in the world.

But I think it almost takes away or – I guess it's so sexy and so interesting and so amazing that they physically going to space. Technically Branson didn't go into space, he went into near space. Bezos did because he crossed the Kármán line, he got to 106 kilometres. Branson didn't get that far up. So technically, technically only Bezos went into space.

But I think it takes away from what space actually has to offer the stuff that Daniel was talking about in detail. The fact that we can fix problems, the fact that people are working some fantastic things, especially here in the UK.

But then we talk about it. It's normal that you hear about the big rockets going up, and that's how people’s perspective of what space is is so warped, because they assume it's going to be this giant tank thing going up into space and burning the atmosphere.

And it's not at all what we're doing here, especially not in Scotland. It's very much tiny little kind of loaf of bread sized cube sats going up to beam down information about how the forests are looking, that's the kind of thing that we're dealing with. Which is important because deforestation is a huge issue across the whole world.

So I think there needs to be more awareness across the world about how space is enabling the good fight, and I think if only if only there was a space based marketing agency around who could make that happen, who could tell the world about what it looks like that's essential. Essential to have one of those.

00:31:24 DS

There's a gap there, definitely a gap.

00:31:25 RA

If only we knew one, Kristina.

00:31:27 KT

I know, I know, maybe run by some kind of a GlobalScot would be really helpful so they could really understand the culture. I's just an impossible dream, obviously. You just have to leave it.

00:31:40 RA

And I really thought both you'd have your flight suits ready. Oh so disappointed.

00:31:45 KT

We'll work on it, we'll work on it. I'll start flying normally, maybe, and see if I can escalate up to space.

00:31:51 RA

You're right, though, it's not just about the kind of very visible end, I think it's all the untold stories that we definitely need to get out there and hear more about, because those are the ones that are actually genuinely changing the world that we live in.

Well, we're getting near the end of our time together, sadly, we have a final question which we ask every episode participants to answer, so I'm going to ask you the question. I'm going to ask you first. Kristina, actually, I think, because you probably covered some of this already.

Thinking specifically about COP26 in Glasgow in November. What are your personal aspirations and hopes for this COP?

00:32:30 KT

I'm hoping it will give a platform for Scotland and specifically the Scottish space sector to showcase exactly the things we talked about. To showcase what we can do; to showcase what we should be invested in. To showcase that there is already so much activity happening here in Scotland.

And that people should be coming to us for advice and guidance and letting us actually share the things that we're doing well locally.

And we're doing this globally as well, but I think it's a really good platform and a really good focus for us to go look at us. Look how well we're doing, we can teach you, and that's an opportunity, I would say.

00:33:08 RA

And Daniel, same question to you, hopes and aspirations for COP26?

00:33:12 DS

Yeah, I think exactly, you know what Kristina said there. I think for me it's about it's an opportunity, particularly because it's in Scotland and we are seen to be very good at this new space stuff.

That, if we can make sure that space is seen as a tool for environmental and support and protection rather than what it may currently be seen as, then I think that would be a huge accomplishment.

Space does have a lot to offer in, you know that that area, so it's a great chance for us to highlight that at COP, especially as it’s on home soil.

00:33:44 RA

I'm afraid that's all we really have time for today, so I think we'll call it a day there. We'll continue the journey to sustainable space at some point in the future. I'm quite sure we'll revisit this to another episode of the Think Climate podcast, but for now, thank you both and Daniel and Kristina for joining me today.

And here’s hoping that we can look forward to some exciting space content at COP26.

00:34:07 KT

Indeed, thank you.

00:34:08 RA

Thanks very much.

00:34:10 Narrator

Thank you for listening today. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Get involved with the climate conversation on Scottish enterprises, social channels and join us next time on the Think podcast.